tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post8643295109633877430..comments2023-12-07T23:17:07.357-08:00Comments on Mass Effect Indoctrination: 2. Other Compelling In-game Evidence That Supports IndoctrinationLee Swainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-82810201434891167102018-11-12T06:23:23.629-08:002018-11-12T06:23:23.629-08:00You know what guys. I think the final and decisive...You know what guys. I think the final and decisive evidence for me in favor of indoc theory was this: we don't have the final battle. <br /><br />It was supposed to be with reapers, right? The whole ME trilogy was building up to this moment - the final battle with Reapers, not letting the Reapers harvest organics, by any means possible. And bamm no fight. The Illusive man is definitely the mini-boss at most, as the fight with him can be easily skipped by the suicide route.<br /><br />So why there is no final battle with Reapers? Because there is one, just not the one we were used to and expecting to take part in. It is happening in Shepards mind. Shep is not indoctrinated up to this point, but after the Harbinger says "Join us" upon releasing the beam, the fight starts. It has a few phases - like any significant boss fight would have - with approaching the Citadel and roaming though it, with Anderson-TIM antagonism aka sane, "soldier" if you will, part of Shep VS ready to give in to indoctrination part of Shep. And finally with the Starchild, as the final Reapers' attempt to make Shepard join the Reapers. Quite a desperate attempt as in the "real" world the Crucible was actually about to go off and recruiting Shepard was probably their last chance to stay alive.<br /><br />There is a fight, not a traditional one, but what a fight it is. It's just epic. And there is only one way to win it - to destroy the Reapers, being true to yourself and the path you chose. Dajoliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02281522313446533395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-24082348444808266882016-03-10T15:03:32.049-08:002016-03-10T15:03:32.049-08:00Its been a long time since I played the games so I...Its been a long time since I played the games so I do not know if it makes sense but while reading some of your work and the links your provided I came onto something. There is a moment when the illusive man says: see what power they wield, see what they can do? What if the illusive man is saying this to the reapers? Because in the end, sheperd is synthetic in a way and Anderson is organic I think? Like I said it has been a long time since I played the games, I just go with what you and others wrote. So in a way, when Sheperd shoots Anderson it is a syntethic life form that kills a organic life form. Are the reapers not there to prevent this from happening? That synthetics kill all organic life? But sheperd did not do this on his own, he was controle by illusive man. What if illusive man is in a way the Catalysator? That he really controls the reapers. That he controls everything. In that way it is easy for him to make Sheperd shoot Anderson and why he does that he says to the Reapers: look what power they wield (Sheperd as synthetic) look what they can do (Sheperd shooting a good friend which is organic) All for giving the reapers a good reason to end all organic live form. Is Illusive man organic or syntethic? Does he really need to be afraid of the reapers killing all organic life form? Was his apprentice, the girl that contacts Sheperd and builds him up in a way also not syntethic in a way? Is it to far fetched to believe illusive man is also syntethic? What about his eyes? Why does Sheperd get the same eyes when he chooses to control the reapers? Is this not prove that Illusive man, who has the same eyes, controls the reapers? But this is probably not true because I really do not know anything about the game anymore and I can only go on what I read here... Sorry if it is stupid what I say but these things came to my mind while reading it. What if illusive man never wanted to destroy the reapers but wanted to make sure that the reapers destroyed the only person who could destroy him? Shepperd.Jim Betahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06000397414407751915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-70631438364279246482014-07-13T20:30:31.619-07:002014-07-13T20:30:31.619-07:00I don't personally believe the same version of...I don't personally believe the same version of IT that everyone else does. It's kind of similar to a post on the BSN titled "Mass Effect 3 Ending is a Masterpiece"<br /><br />http://forum.bioware.com/topic/284491-mass-effect-3-ending-is-a-masterpiece-spoilers-are-imminent/<br /><br />Only difference being, it is not a dream, but rather a virtual realty world constructed by Harbinger. Using Shepard's memories. Seeing as the ending chapter of the Final Hours App is titled "The Perfect Illusion" and going by the "Master of Illusion" trope, everything within the ending sequence fits that to a T. With past sci-fi, I know that any changes in the virtual reality world affect what happens in the real world (think Geth Consensus). <br /><br />So shooting the tube (in destroy) will set off the Crucible and kill the Reapers in one swoop. Then Shepard wakes up and everything is silent at the end. Same goes for control/synthesis. Choosing synthesis, will harvest everyone (that can be harvested. Squadmates are indoctrinated to serve for slave labor (harvesting codex entry)), give them Reaper DNA (Final Hours App), and everyone becomes loyal to the Reapers (as per EDI). Control? Well, essentially take "assuming direct control" and apply that to everyone in the galaxy. You are now like TIM. <br /><br />Ending is also kind of similar to something the Rachni Queen said in the first game (for those who think this may have been planned ahead of time, as a certain article noted that the ending was in the works from the beginning of ME1 with multiple versions (dark energy, indoctrination, Shepard being an alien, TIM Reaper boss, etc). <br /><br />Rachni Queen: I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance. Songs the color of oily shadows (TIM, Starchild). <br /><br />If you look very closely at the Starchild scene, you'll notice:<br /><br />Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?<br />[camera pans over slightly, shows the oily shadows in the kid's hair]<br />Starchild: Perhaps, I control the Reapers. They are my solution. <br /><br />Rachni Queen: A tone from space, hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with it's own sour yellow note (indoctrination). Then we awoke in this place (Earth). The last echo of those who came out of the singing planet (Earth). The sky is silent (no more indoctrination, because Reapers are destroyed). Shepard wins, mass relays intact, and Joker/everyone else did not crash on that planet. That is just part of the indoctrination process (Reapers resulting control of Shepard's limbic system makes him susceptible to believing whatever they tell him).magnetitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14618020288619062842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-46369666499745218392014-05-22T10:48:26.687-07:002014-05-22T10:48:26.687-07:00This whole concept has me hooked almost as much as...This whole concept has me hooked almost as much as I am hooked on the games. I've been thinking about it a lot and decided to set up an account here just so I could post this. See, there are things we are not considering that I believe support this theory.<br /><br />There are 3 things we know when it comes to future Mass Effect games:<br />1. They are in the processes of making one<br />2. It will not star Commander Sheppard<br />3. Its a good idea to hold on to your saves files from the other games<br />What we haven't asked ourselves is where the Mass Effect 3 endings leave us as far as a potential Mass Effect 4. As these endings both leave the Normandy crew stranded and involve destroying the Mass Relays (Necessary to give players the whole galaxy in future games) and there have been no other interesting wars involving humans in which they had contact with the rest of the galaxy (not just the turians but everyone else to) these endings do not seams to lead to a Mass Effect 4 which we know is coming.<br /><br />We also know that the Reapers generally take years if not decades to wipe out a galaxy. We know from our prothian friend that in his cycle people lives whole lives never seeing either the end or the beginning of the Reaper war. He himself was born after the Reapers took the Citadel and grew to adulthood during this war. What if YOUR commander Sheppard the way YOU set him up in 1 2 and 3 with the skills and appearance YOU game him or her ends up being the protagonist in the next game. It's been done before. Star Wars 1 2 and 3 were intended to show that even in 4 5 and 6 it was supposed to be the story of Darth Vader. What if when Sheppard wakes up still dealing with the indoctrination the war continues with an indoctrinated Sheppard leading the Reaper charge?<br /><br />For that matter, what if Bioware did this intentionally to get us to think crazy things so we could inadvertently create the story for the next trilogy? What if they intended the fans they created to rebel against the game maker that created them so that we could decide what happened at the end of Mass Effect 3. What if the indoctrination theory is true not because Bioware made it that way but because the ending was designed so that we could give it the meaning we wanted to?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09861281751488108521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-11615724953702326092013-10-24T22:53:30.619-07:002013-10-24T22:53:30.619-07:00http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/...http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9872108&lf=8<br /><br />https://twitter.com/masseffect/status/179687674049867776<br /><br />@masseffect Do you think fans can become indoctrinated by Bioware<br /><br />@reibback_flam Shhh.... Absolutely not! *shifty eyes*<br /><br />This was Bioware's plan. To pull a Mass Indoctrination on their own customers. They've succeeded in doing so. <br /><br />Charles. The gun that you have is a special gun specifically made for the ending. Going by how the game engine works, they used the same model, but modified the gun to have no scope, infinite ammo, as well as a 999 mag size (ammo per clip), unlike the regular Carnifex which behaves differently. The gun even fires faster than the regular Carnifex.<br /> <br />This isn't a mistake or anything, it was done on purpose to simulate that what you are experiencing is not really happening.<br /><br />Reaper indoctrination corrupts organic minds. The final 20 minutes of the game do not take place in the real world. They take place in Shepard's mind. magnetitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14618020288619062842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-46681582090142995572013-02-24T11:23:42.493-08:002013-02-24T11:23:42.493-08:00I noticed something else. You know Anderson's ...I noticed something else. You know Anderson's gun, the one you pick up after being hit by Harbinger? That was clearly a Carnifix, and everyone knows that a Carnifix holds only 6 rounds per thermal clip. Then how come I was able to use exactly 13 rounds to put down the husks and marauder without having to reload? Not even an extended clip holds that much ammo.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16690232866074732699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-87880390985140704812012-06-26T04:19:52.077-07:002012-06-26T04:19:52.077-07:00I wanna add something else, the room where the pla...I wanna add something else, the room where the platform raises and where Anderson dies is complete BS, there is no other path or walkway for Anderson to have come up without meeting Shepard somewhere along the way. Anderson describes the dark hallways in present tense, meaning that he must have been in the samee hallway for that scene to make any senseSome dude over therehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16557159547489863191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-39333995115618720112012-06-22T11:40:14.258-07:002012-06-22T11:40:14.258-07:00Hi! Look at the EC page.
http://bit.ly/KRUMSX Tali...Hi! Look at the EC page.<br />http://bit.ly/KRUMSX Tali is talking with green-eyed Geth!!! :O<br />(no spam/virus link, this is a shortened link with a picture)dfhdfhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09687901603030118272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-64834622230957899712012-06-19T06:49:33.589-07:002012-06-19T06:49:33.589-07:00Good point. It would be a very odd place for an en...Good point. It would be a very odd place for an engine.Lee Swainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-67854480050102005262012-06-18T22:35:30.257-07:002012-06-18T22:35:30.257-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.lol1489https://www.blogger.com/profile/12669538301652453876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-53069830002120566402012-06-17T02:39:48.963-07:002012-06-17T02:39:48.963-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.lol1489https://www.blogger.com/profile/12669538301652453876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-36763824434521202272012-06-15T23:59:13.243-07:002012-06-15T23:59:13.243-07:00Hey Guys!!! So here is something that doesn't ...Hey Guys!!! So here is something that doesn't make any sense(surprisingly lol)When Shepard gets teleported to the Citadel he goes through something that looks like collectors ship(room No 1)and then shadow brokers ship. You can see engine the same as in SB Ship in ME2. So I read the comments of people who dont believe in IT and they say it makes sense for engine that big to be located on citadel since the Citadel is the one huge Spaceship/station. But no it doesnt when you go through this second room you are basically already in Citadel Control Room. How could ,whoever build the Citadel, have placed the biggest engines in the galaxy into the smallest part of citadel. Citadel Control Room is just a tiny place its like a molecule compare to the all other part of citadel. Wouldnt it make more sense to put those engines in Citadel arms one per each arm? Just my thoughts on what I read on internet, btw havent seen anybody talking about wrong placement of what it looks like Big Sparkly Engine from ME2 in control room, just thought i'd share it with you guysXanderLavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16685366067371430058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-60085006261287946862012-06-12T15:37:40.395-07:002012-06-12T15:37:40.395-07:00No that is an absolutely incorrect statement. Biow...No that is an absolutely incorrect statement. Bioware have NEVER stated anything as absurd as coming up with the end as late as November 2011!<br /><br />They have repeatedly stated that the whole game including the end was worked on from the start of development. Yes certain elements changed along the way, but it is simply NOT true that they came up with the ending 4 months before release. They have NEVER said that.<br /><br />In fact in the Final Hours of Mass Effect 3 app they clearly state that they were refining elements of TIM's lines in November 2011. So the end was DONE all that was left was tweaking. They can not be tweaking the lines AND writing a whole new ending.<br /><br />It would be insane for a developer to wait until 4 months from release and then decide to write the ending.<br /><br />Also the beta was leaked Nov 4h and the ending in the script in that beta was almost identical to the final game.<br /><br />I don't know where you got your information, but it's simply false.Lee Swainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-56729689228867549532012-06-12T14:11:59.218-07:002012-06-12T14:11:59.218-07:00According to Bioware's own admission, they did...According to Bioware's own admission, they didn't come up with the ending to the game until November 2011, when they were looking at a March 2012 release date. That's four months (even including the holiday season which is lost time for most companies) to storyboard, write code, bring in voice actors, do quality control, send the game out to whoever/whatever creates the physical copies.<br /><br />I guess they could be lying about coming up with the ending at literally the last minute, but that seems pretty far fetched to me.Erikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03073114744375513118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-74576991617134643872012-06-11T14:20:58.102-07:002012-06-11T14:20:58.102-07:00I posted on an outdated site, sorry. I just want t...I posted on an outdated site, sorry. I just want to thank Lee for compiling all of this. It is quite an achievement by itself. As I said in the other post, I was a skeptic, but now do believe the Shep is under the influence of something. Whether that is indoctrination or some kind of mind battle between her and the Reapers, I don't know. I do believe that the ending we got is it. There's nothing else to come and that the final battle between Shep and the Reapers took place both in Shepard's mind and in the real world at the same time. Though I may not agree completely w/ IT, this is still a fascinating read and a lot of fun to explore. Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00082842604038148390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-83542829340648913992012-05-31T13:10:24.900-07:002012-05-31T13:10:24.900-07:00During the second dream sequence, turn off the mus...During the second dream sequence, turn off the music and just listen to the sound effects, you'll hear an assortment of Reaper sounds. You might have to increase the volume of your television or computer to hear them though.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15007306383578357416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-26128606431326800582012-05-30T11:52:02.239-07:002012-05-30T11:52:02.239-07:00Oh, ok) I was worried that my comments were blocke...Oh, ok) I was worried that my comments were blocked or something)<br />Anyway, BioWare bave been using lots of material from other movies, games etc. so I wouldn't be surprised. It's just that the more I think about this, the more DS2 and ME3 endings seem alike.<br /><br />P.S.<br />And thanks again for all your hard and incredible work at collecting all the data here!Insomniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09213380715434377279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-63025772225739891382012-05-30T11:46:49.554-07:002012-05-30T11:46:49.554-07:00LOL, sorry. I am pretty busy at work. I did read y...LOL, sorry. I am pretty busy at work. I did read your comment but didn't get a chance to reply.<br /><br />Interesting thoughts on the Dead Space 2 connection. I however have not played it, so not much I can comment on in that regards. Could be that it influenced Bioware to some degree though.Lee Swainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-9172068002711906412012-05-30T11:20:26.133-07:002012-05-30T11:20:26.133-07:00Er, I'm sorry, but is there something wrong wi...Er, I'm sorry, but is there something wrong with my previous comment here (as "Insomnia", about ME3 and DS2 similarities)? I'd really like to know what you think :) It's just that every single other comment gets an answer, but not mine :)Insomniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09213380715434377279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-5903590356998421862012-05-29T12:39:20.893-07:002012-05-29T12:39:20.893-07:00Seems an absurd stretch to me to say that Bioware ...Seems an absurd stretch to me to say that Bioware accidentally left all these great clues for something they did not intend rather than they did intend them.<br /><br />Also seems more likely that legandary great writers, know for great twists at Bioware came up with a brilliant but too subtle twist rather than they wrote a terrible nonsensical ending.<br /><br />Also they do not make games in the order you play them. The final part of the game was not done last, so it would not have been "rushed". The end of the game would have been written very early in production and worked on throughout. <br /><br />When games are rushed in the final months it results in bugs and possible sections cut out. Not sections written poorly. The writing is often still having final touches and improvements at those late stages but the idea they rushed the ending makes little sense in game development.<br /><br />When you know this about game development you realize that everything in that final mission is how it's meant to be, very purposely. You think that great writing staff at Bioware did not notice all those plot holes? Not a chance.Lee Swainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-56397292961116870222012-05-29T12:29:30.686-07:002012-05-29T12:29:30.686-07:00Another item of note: Shepard doesn't just lo...Another item of note: Shepard doesn't just lose his/her weapons after getting hit by the laser. He/she also loses the ability to use biotic and tech abilities; as I found out when my Vanguard Shep tried to take out those husks using my preferred method, warp.<br /><br />After my Shep was hit by that beam, I thought I did something wrong. I even wound up letting the husks kill Shep on the first attempt, because I couldn't understand how she could take out enemies with one crappy pistol and no biotics.<br /><br />That said, while I like what people have done with IT, I'm still willing to chalk all this up to bad storytelling. There's just so much wrong with Priority: Earth well before you get to the beam, that it's pretty obvious that Bioware ran out of time. The dreamlike qualities of the final ten minutes could simply be storytelling conceit.Erikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03073114744375513118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-27680458274707041742012-05-29T12:21:47.075-07:002012-05-29T12:21:47.075-07:00In classical music, it's called a leitmotif h...In classical music, it's called a leitmotif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeitmotifErikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03073114744375513118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-54234432745840327372012-05-27T23:27:08.405-07:002012-05-27T23:27:08.405-07:00Noticed something else (although it's not real...Noticed something else (although it's not really indoctrinated related). When Shepard comes face to face with the "Kid" in the vent, "An End, Once And For All" is playing subtly in the background. Maybe a bit of foreshadowing on Bioware's part. After all, music is used as a storytelling device to reference characters (and other things). Star Wars is a great example of this.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15007306383578357416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-10872327584420564382012-05-25T09:32:28.548-07:002012-05-25T09:32:28.548-07:00LOL, all very good points!LOL, all very good points!Lee Swainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905730375136114952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-777163975004285887.post-80946352275439398502012-05-24T23:17:15.642-07:002012-05-24T23:17:15.642-07:00You mentioned Hackett, and there is something tha...You mentioned Hackett, and there is something that has been bothering me ever since I beat the game. When Hackett contacts Shepard, he claims that the Crucible isn't firing. He is very concerned about this, as he should be, but when Shepard ascends to the Star Child, Hackett, apparently, loses all interest in the Crucible, as he doesn't contact Shepard for the rest of the game. Really? He doesn't even seek an update? <br /><br />Hackett: "Shepard, what's taking so long with the Crucible?"<br /><br />Shepard: "Well, there's this ghost child telling me that he created synthetics to kill organics, so that the organics won't create synthetics that will kill the organics."<br /><br />Hackett: "... What?"<br /><br />Shepard: "Dont ask, don't ask...."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15007306383578357416noreply@blogger.com